[nal]

To those of you who made Sandye feel unwelcome here anymore, Shame On You. How dare you? I don't know names, because she wouldn't tell.....
This is not to invite further discussion - I have no interest in talking with people who would do that. Have an opinion, no problem. Disagree with her, no problem. Make her feel unwelcome here - BIG PROBLEM!!

[Deltha]

DITTO!!

[HollyAsWell]

And to the same person(s):

And just so you know - I've deleted your private messages without reading them. If you can't post it on the message board - then I don't want to read it.

[JuzMe]

Holly, If you had not been so sure that I was a mean and nasty person, because you assumed things without finding out for sure, you would have read this message in your PM...

Holly,
I wanted to clear these things up for/with you...
quote:

If you had any grasp of the history of this country you would know it was founded on the principal of a citizen's right to challenge the public policies and institutions created by the government as well as the government itself. It's not just a right Vallejo, it's an OBLIGATION. When you see an injustice in a society, you VOCALIZE your discontent in the hopes that it CEASES. You can only affect change by noticing problems and taking action. Remaining ignorant is not heroic.

If anyone would have seen my PM to Sandye, or read with any kind of open mind the posts I had made earlier, you would have seen, each time that I said exactly what you stated here... I said it is our responsibility to change what we see is wrong and change it in a peaceful manner...(please note, Sandye was the one that said it could not be done in the African-American's plight.. really what about Martin L King, Mandela and others like them?) I am not nieve that there is no racism, when we find it we need to make sure it is stopped... my only problem I had with Sandye, is that she looks for and expects the worst.. You can tell this simply by her first post about the fact she was worried that her son would be attacked by a police man..
quote:

Vallejo, I believe one of your posts said something like, "Heck, don't get down on the police for beating this 16 year old, they were in an adrenaline situation, what would you do?"

I do not know what post you were reading, but that was not one of mine... I said, we were not there, we did not know what happened before the tape was turned on, we did not know how we would react if our adrenaline was rushing.. where in that post did you read it was ok for the cops to hurt that boy? What I did say also, if these people (and I got reamed from Sandye, assuming I was a racist calling the criminals "these people" she assumed I meant because they were black, in reality I only meant these people as in criminals.) had not broken the law, then they would not have had an encounter with the police and their lives would have never been impacted that way.. Do you really believe most cops, or even more than a handful.. in all of the US, really search out innocent people, black, white or whatever color.. to drag them from their cars and hurt them? If you do, then I suggest that you start a march on Washington.. and if you can prove that, I will march with you! Whether it is Politically Correct or not, the truth is, Sandye's son had a contact with the cops because he was breaking the law.. Like I said to Sandye in the PM I sent her, why didn't she speak to her son about blasting his music, she had to know it was against the law, had he not been blasting it, the cops would not have had any reason to pull him over in the first place...
I hope you read some of this with an open mind, I am not an idiot, I do not condone illegal behavior no matter where it comes from. I love my country and after 9/11/01, every day here is even more precious than the day before.
One more thing that I explained to Sandye is, I am white but my children are mixed, I have never feared for their safety because I taught them from very young, that even the appearance of wrong doing can get you into trouble. I have raised two wonderful children, my daughter is in college studying to be a nurse and my son serves our country in the Air Force and his goal when he gets out in 16 months (not that mom is counting at all!) is to be a police officer... My current hubby is a retired officer and I have ridden along with him many times, he had white, black, Asian partners.. I never once saw anyone of them mistreat a "custody"
I know that your son is "of color" I hope you teach him to love America, look for the good in people, expect the best in people, and I believe, like my children did.. he will find all the love and acceptance that is out there from Americans of all colors...
God bless you,
Beth

By the way, the reason I sent you a PM, was so this topic could die in the forum.. It has caused a lot of issues here, and all because we have different opinions.

Remember our country's motto "out of many one"

[ September 29, 2002, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: JuzMe ]

[HollyAsWell]

VallyjoBeth/Juzme, I hope that at some point in time you educate yourself about the realities in this country if you truly love it as much as you say you do. The proof is all around you - all you need do is avail yourself of the facts.

I ignored your private message because I feel you are somewhat unstable about this issue. I will be ignoring the rest of your posts for that reason as well.

P.S. The motto is: Out of many-comes one. It refers to a 'nation'; a nation made up of different races, religions and ethnicities.

[HollyAsWell]

For anyone who may be interested:

http://www.aclu.org/profiling/report/

http://www.hrw.org/reports98/police/

http://www.amnestyusa.org/rightsforall/police/

http://www.pbs.org/speaktruthtopower/issue_police.html

http://www.october22.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=arti cle&sid=1130&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

There's a lot more - most information on the internet can be found by searching for "racial profiling" or "police brutality".

Note here that I am not implying that all police officers are violent people who engage in criminal behavior. I am simply pointing out that police violence is a RECOGNIZED and FREQUENT problem throughout the country and the links above are for those who wish to educate themselves on the matter.

-- It would be great if a forum moderator would step in and close this thread.

[ September 30, 2002, 12:03 AM: Message edited by: HollyAsWell ]

[JuzMe]

You kill me, But that is okay.. once again I just have a different opinion as you, but the only thing you can say is that I am not educated.. That is fine, believe as you wish.

Note here that I am not implying that all police officers are violent people who engage in criminal behavior. I am simply pointing out that police violence is a RECOGNIZED and FREQUENT problem throughout the country and the links above are for those who wish to educate themselves on the matter.

If you think of all of the police contacts in all of the United States EVERYDAY. My hubby contacted at least 10 people a night in a 12 hour shift, times that by how many police we have in this country, times the days of the year.. once again you will realize that even if some organizations that profit by making people fear and hate one another tell us that it is an issue... there is no way the statistics prove out that it is a

FREQUENT problem throughout the country

This is my opinion, you stated yours.. I still wish for the best for your son as he grows.. I hope you do not teach him that this is an epidemic and he is destined to be a statistic to it...
Peace,
Beth

[HollyAsWell]

I wonder what "frequent" would mean to you. Is it fifty times, one hundred times, one thousand times, two thousand times? "Frequency" when it comes to violence - is not relative to the number of times it does not happen.

I'm also wondering just who you think is going to report on Police behavior if not the international organizations who watch human rights. Do you think the Police themselves report on it? If you feel that Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and people the police have commissioned themselves to address racial profiling and violence are just overstating the problem in order to make a buck then you choose to remain blind to the facts. That is my opinion.

You assume that because people recognize a problem that somehow they are instilling fear and hate in their children. You have done this now twice - to both Sandye and myself. I think that you are not so much interested in making a point as you are in making trouble. Your tactics are troublesome and childish. You jumped into a post that you knew you did not agree with and insisted on carrying it on despite the fact that a person had agreed to disagree with you. You have sent private emails to both Sandye and I continuing the conversation when I know you are aware the communication is not wanted. That is not concern about promoting your opinion, that is obsession with forcing it on others even if you have to resort to questioning their parenting skills. I could not stoop as low as you have but I will say that you ARE entitled to your opinion, but you should learn how to properly present it otherwise it just becomes lost in the delivery.

Problems remain when people refuse to acknowledge them.

But you have a nice day anyway.

[ September 30, 2002, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: HollyAsWell ]

[JuzMe]

I only sent private PMs to you and Sandye because you both made comments about me that I figured would be better resolved in private.. Had Sandye not made a comment that she didn't want to be attacked again, and had you not twisted my words so badly, I would have let the subject die.. Both times the two of you chose the public forum..
Thanks for expanding on your original post to me of "Beth, seek help"
Have a great day
Beth

P.S. to your p.s. in your 2nd post, I did some research and as I said our Motto is "out of many, one" Here is a website you may go to if you would like http://www.usscouts.org/flag/sealmotto.html Here is what it says -
E Pluribus Unum means "out of many, one". It comes from a popular publication during revolutionary times entitled Gentleman's Magazine which carried that legend upon the title page. The magazine was well known to literate Americans of the time. The Gentleman's Magazine obtained the legend from an earlier and long out of print publication called the Gentleman's Journal which used the motto in 1692. And perhaps ultimately to Virgil, St. Augustine or Horace. It was first used extensively in the United States only after it was introduced on the Great Seal.

[ September 30, 2002, 11:33 PM: Message edited by: JuzMe ]

[ALLYSON in Raleigh]

JOHN OR JIPI:

Can you please close this thread DOWN permanently? Now we have someone who has gone as far as to CHANGE their user name in order to continue their offensive rhetoric.

This is obviously a very heated issue, one which is passionate to many; however, people should not be subjected to continued harrassment by one. It is totally inappropriate and leaves a stain on our collective spirit.

Thank you for you timely assistance in this matter.

Sincerely,

Allyson